An Interview with Brijan Powell

An Interview with Brijan Powell

Brijan Powell is a graphic designer based in Salt Lake City UT, with a strong focus on traditional graphic design, creating campaigns, brands, typefaces, and websites for clients large and small. He has worked with brands like Nike, Red Bull, Apple, Twitch, Disney, Netflix and many others.

Featured Footer: Fabio Carretti

You can find him on Instagram at Powell_Studio and on X at @brijanp. You can see more of his work at powell-studio.com.

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Transcript

Brijan Powell: I'm Brian Powell. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I'm a graphic designer. That's what I do for money. And,

Devin Fountain: My first question is, it's more of like a whole statement you're known on Twitter as being quite a contentious person. Some would even call you a troll or a shit poster, if you prefer that.

Tell me a little bit about your social presence there. Like, what is it that you're trying to do, or is it just you being yourself?

Brijan Powell: I mean, I'm just having fun. I'm bored. I I work by myself all day, every day. It's like a way to start a conversation, you know, like if you ever hung out with like your guy friends and you're just like giving each other shit, it's kind of like that, you know?

It's funny to me that people get so upset about it, you know, because just like. You're online. You know, somebody is eventually going to come along and it's a bit like for no reason, like it's just going to happen. And you know what I mean? Like sometimes I just think it's funny. Sometimes I just am bored.

Sometimes like I'm genuinely just trying to like get someone to think a little bit differently, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it's like, it's never really for the same reason. It's always kind of like, where am I at that day, like sometimes I'm like, Oh, today's a great day. And I kind of just want to have a conversation.

So I'm going to start like a little argument. Some days I'm like, I hate all of these designers, they're all idiots. So I'm just going to fucking give them shit. You know, like there, there's many, many reasons why I get a little wild on Twitter. And honestly, sometimes it's mostly just because I'm like, this is so boring.

These people talk about the exact same thing over and over. And it's just not interesting. Like let's, let's like do something interesting, you know, like that's what we do for a living is something interesting. So let's actually pretend like interesting people, you know?

Devin Fountain: Yeah. Are you, are you sort of weary of like a lot of the sort of like growth hacks or like, here's 10 tips to become a better designer. Like see in thread, it's like a, you know, hand pointing down into the thread. I think that like a lot of, a lot of Twitter in general, a lot of social in general, my bad, really leans heavily into very binary takes. Right. And because of that, it ends up being like, you're either right or you're wrong.

Do you think that, you know, the, the things that you bring up on Twitter to other people when you're responding are sort of the antithesis to that?

Brijan Powell: I mean, sometimes, yeah, it's a little devil's advocate, you know what I mean? And then I, I think a lot of times too, it's just like, I don't know, the threads bother me that much because like, I just kind of ignore them.

It's kind of [00:03:00] more like the stuff that like, you see that like. I mean, any kind of comment that like really sets people off, you know, there's, I'm not immune to that. There's definitely things that like, I see that I'm like, that is probably the dumbest thing I've ever read, you know? And, and I'm kind of like, man, you know, like, not that like, I know everything cause I don't, but I have done design for like 25, 26 years.

And when I see like a kid that's like, I knew everything I've been doing this for three years and I'm like fucking congratulations, you know, like that's cool. But like, I mean, have you stopped to think that like, you know, there's other people out there with different perspectives that really honestly know quite a bit more than you do and that are more than happy to like help you along the way.

And when you like kind of alienate those people. It's not like really helpful to [00:04:00] you, you know, like, I mean, it sounds like I'm like on a soapbox preaching because I like actually do the exact same thing. You know what I mean? Like I alienate people all the time, I'm sure, but I honestly, I think I'm at a point in my career where like, I'm like, I kind of don't care.

Like, I don't really mind if like some people will feel like, like, well, then we wouldn't work together. Well, anyway, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's probably not likely anyways.

Devin Fountain: Likely anyways.

Brijan Powell: Yeah, they'd probably be like. Oh, I should have worked with someone else, you know? And I'm like, yeah, good. You know?

That's perfect. It's like a great, it almost works as a really nice way to like filter people out before anything, you know? I mean, granted, there's people that like, are literally never gonna look into and don't care and they're like in anyway. Yeah. But I think, you know, social as a whole, it's like such a weird, such a weird thing and I don't.

I mean, I kind of like to use all the other things for like, actually just showing my work. [00:05:00] And recently, like within the last, probably like, I don't know, two or three months, I've been showing like almost exclusively work on my feed, you know, and like, of course I'll like respond to people that are saying things and like stuff like that, but like trying very rarely anymore to like actually put anything.

I, my own beat that's like design topics because I'm just like, there's enough people doing this, I don't need to participate, you know?

Devin Fountain: Yeah. So you're treating it more as like, just post work up there. Did you get work from that ever?

Brijan Powell: You know, what's funny is like, I've literally gotten maybe two projects ever on Twitter, and I don't know that it's even from Twitter.

People were like, Hey, this is the one place that I could find you to reach out. You know? Yeah, or, or the, or like on Instagram though, Mike might reach out to, it's like, it's so funny because it's like I think some people that know me well, like within the industry, like other agencies or whatever, like, like that, that's the kind of people that reach out and hit me up on Twitter.[00:06:00]

Cause they don't know like my email address or whatever, but now that I have my portfolio site after like 20 years of not having one. Yeah. Yeah.

Devin Fountain: You would say, you would say often, I would see you mentioned something like yeah, I don't, I don't need a portfolio. I just show my work and now you, you're the one that has the portfolio.

Brijan Powell: Yeah. And I mean, you know what, honestly, like I don't, I really don't even know how many people look at it. A lot of times people that will hit me up will be like, oh, I didn't even know you have like, yeah, here you, here it is. You can check it out. Yeah. Isn't it weird though? Cause I feel like people kind of just like hear about you.

Like most of the time I feel like most work isn't even coming from, it's coming from somebody saying that. So and so told me about you.

Devin Fountain: Yeah, I think almost all my work comes from somebody mentioning me somewhere. And they're like, yeah, I have this, this exact type of style that I want to, you know, to accomplish.

I know that the person that's looking for it, they never really get a chance to look at the work that I've [00:07:00] done. And I'm okay with that. As long as I get paid at the end of the day, that's fine by me. So you, you mentioned earlier that, these younger designers show up and they think they know everything.

And it's a bit like if you've ever seen that bell chart, right. Where it's like the people at both ends are like, I know, you know, Helvetica is the best font. And then you kind of get to the middle of the pack where everybody is. And they're like, it's not that great. And then the end, everyone's like, no, it is actually perfect.

How do you feel about, you know, the future of. I guess in our industry, like how, how is it making you feel? Are you, are you like excited for them?

Brijan Powell: You know, I mean, I had such a different experience starting out, you know, like that was when things were, well, I mean, I really started when websites started, you know, I mean, I've been doing this for really long and, you know, there, there was kind of that full era of like flash sites that were like hyper, [00:08:00] hyper creative.

And like really interesting and kind of wild and people, you know, like some people loved it, some people loved it. I was on the love side and, you know, I'd feel, I feel really bad for people that kind of don't get, or don't want like design to be exciting and to have like, to exude something or something.

They just basically want it to be like these apps that are like, it's, it's helping me. Do something in my life. Like to me, I'm like, that's great. That's fine. Well, what's fun about that? And what is like, I don't know, like what makes you feel anything from that? You know, like I think I come more from the art side of design than I do from the data driven, boring side of design.

I really love it when I see designs that make me excited and want me. Like [00:09:00] I want to be part of that, that product in some way, you know, or that project or whatever it is, you know, like how do you feel like, gosh, like, man, like when I would see old sites from like North kingdom, even like resin sites, I mean, they still do some cool stuff, but like these sites that had like these just kind of like their own worlds, their own little universes, you know, like speaking strictly of universes, like red interactive, they built literally like this universe where you like.

You were like an avatar and you just walked around this weird, like universe that they made, you know and I worked for them for a while and we built like kind of a big universe. It was like around Star Wars, Lego Star Wars. And we had like this kind of game outside of the game, you know, that like was just online and you could play these Lego characters and earn badges and all this kind of stuff.

And that's kind of stuff is like super fun and crazy to me, you know, like it's. I think I like gaming [00:10:00] a little bit more. I think I'm not like a huge gamer, but like, I think that kind of stuff is like really interesting and like, I can find things in it. That's like a little bit more inspiring and, and just fun, you know, and like you feel something from it.

You, you feel like you have a takeaway from like the experience that you just had rather than just like visiting a website. Or using an app and being like, you know, like it feels like so dead inside. It feels like, so just like kind of, even though I think they're trying to create these things that have real purpose, I feel like they're so purposeless and meaningless, you know, like, it's like, I kind of like those things that feel like I want to be a part of that weird world that they just created.

And I don't know how, because it's literally just this weird digital world, but like, it made me. Feel something. And I want to like be a part of it. [00:11:00] That's weird. You know? Like, but then we'll look at like, Oh, cool. Here's my little deep dude on the deep dude, a little calendar app. Yeah. It's like, everyone's dead.

They just stare at their phone and you're like, try and have a conversation with them. And they're like, what? You know? And like with those things that with those old kind of websites, people would engage with each other. Literally be like, did you see that thing? That's insane. You know, like, that's what I loved about it.

So the long of the short is that I feel bad for kids coming up now, and I really hope that they can start to, I hope that some things change and I hope that they can start to see things that will make them feel that way and make them feel things that are the same, that are similar, that like help people feel things and like want to engage rather than like.

Spend time staring at the phone. It's like so dead. Yeah, it's like so zombie and [00:12:00] lame and boring.

Devin Fountain: Totally unrelated, did you see the humane AI pin? I think it is the stupidest shit I've ever seen. I did. Tell me you're not excited for it.

Brijan Powell: I don't know. I don't know if I saw it. What is it?

Devin Fountain: It is a pin that clips to your shirt.

That uses it has a little camera as a microphone and you can like, you know, in the, in the demo, they showed the guy holds up a book and he's like, what is this book? And the pen identifies it. And he's like, okay, buy it. And it just, you know, buys it lifelessly. It's just like, okay, buy this thing.

Don't even ask when it should she be shipped or how much it costs or find the lowest price or whatever. Or like, you know, it'd be like, catch me up, you know, we'll summarize texts from friends or something.

Brijan Powell: That's also really sad. You know, like it's so sad. Like I don't know how old you are, Devin, like, did you, do you, how old are you?

I'm 31. I'm just about 31. You were probably [00:13:00] right at the tail end of like when you would actually still go to like the music store and buy a CD, you know? And yeah. No, absolutely.

Devin Fountain: My first CD was. It was a Britney Spears CD. I'm not, I'm not kidding.

Brijan Powell: I mean, that's awesome. There's nothing wrong with that.

Music is like one of the few things that like actually makes me feel anything. So, I mean, no matter what it is, you know, like if it was Britney Spears, for me, I'd be like, Oh, fuck you. You know, but like, but it made me feel something, you know, made me feel like maybe contempt or like, I don't love that. But like, I mean, honestly, I think that like, it's sad that like.

Those experiences are kind of going away. Like it's kind of, it was kind of awesome to go to like a music store and meet these cool people that were selling the records. They tell you like, Hey, if you like this, you should check out this, that whole experience, like these experiences are dying and it's really sad, you know?

I mean, I hope that's not the case. I hope that doesn't go away. I don't want to just [00:14:00] sound like a total doomsday and like the technology. I mean, those things were all technology too, right? Like those were advancing the way music could be like lossless without fine, whatever, right? Like, I mean, to me, it's kind of that idea of like connections and, and, and feeling things and, you know, like actually.

I think people like actually emote something to them and like helping them. Well, what it is that you're trying to accomplish with like a brand or whatever, you know, like those kinds of things seem to just be like, I mean, it, how do you quantify it? So like, how does like, how are you going to sell that to like your client?

Because a lot of them don't even understand that and helping them understand that is, is a really hard thing to do. And, you know, I just, I think that like, that's the thing that makes me bummed is like, [00:15:00] I think even the art form of selling, like evocative experiences is like cav die, right? Like helping people understand, like not everything should be this like super data driven, like algorithm that's like trying to feed you something to buy or.

You know, like, I don't want, I don't want Spotify or. Pandora or whatever, tell me like what music I should like, if I like this thing, I want to go out and meet a person that's like me, that likes that band that like, I mean, granted, I understand that the algorithm is kind of doing that, but it's like the idea of like going out and physically being in a space with someone else, having that experience, talking with them.

Telling them like, Oh man, I love this band because of X, Y, Z, or I love that movie because of X, Y, Z and this and that, you know, like, and then they'd help you find like a new cool movie. That's kind of like that one, you know, go into weird old [00:16:00] Suncoast video in the mall, you know, being like, I love this movie film.

And then the dork at the, behind the counter is like this, you are going to love this one. Then, you know, like that kind of stuff, like was so on. And, and it just like, it just seems like it's like. Sadly disappeared. I bought that. Yeah, it is kind of disappeared.

Devin Fountain: I mean, like, you know, you, you just triggered a memory for me of being a kid and, and like, you know, it was obviously back during like the blockbuster days or in my case, my hometown, it was like Hollywood video.

I'm from Arizona. So there's like this small town, a Hollywood video, and you go to rent a movie or something, and it was with my dad and my dad is like. You can rent whatever you want. I'm not your mom. Something fun. And and some, you know, I was browsing through the movies and you know, there's, there's a bunch that I wanted to see, they were like more kid friendly or whatever.

And, and then some other teenage kid comes up to me and his dad lets him rent whatever. And he's like, you, you should watch starship troopers. I thought that was the [00:17:00] coolest shit. You know, of course there's the shower scene in the movie. And I was like, you know, 10 years old or something. I was like, Oh my God, my mom would never, you just, you don't get anything like that anymore.

You know, it's all like, it's a list online from like the vulture. com and they're like, you know, the 10 movies of 2023 that you have to see. And to be fair, a lot of the movies you, you probably should see, but yeah, you know, give me something that you love. What is something that you feel, you know?

Brijan Powell: Yeah. I love that.

I love that. You know, like. I mean that, that I could sit here right now with you and just be like, what's your favorite movie? Let's like talk about that and like, you tell me like why you like it and then like I'll tell you, you know, like, Oh, yeah, I've seen that and you should totally check this. Know what I mean?

Like that whole kind of interaction is just so much more interesting to me than like saying like here's the 10 top things that you should, you know, I mean, it's like, I don't care. Like, I don't, I don't care. Like that's not really that interesting. Is it, is it [00:18:00] helpful? Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

Devin Fountain: Yeah.

So you, so getting back to a question, you have strong opinions about design that can't be shaken. Like you're still very much a Photoshop diehard, you know, even in 2023 in the land of Figma. How do you define beauty in design?

Brijan Powell: I mean, that's a really good question. To me, it's like every it's, you know, everyone to decide.

I think it's really strange when people like look at something and say, Oh, that's not design, you know, or like, Oh, that's art, not design or that's design art and it's like, well, I mean, line's pretty blurry, you know? And the line is like extremely blurry when it comes to like beauty, you know, someone that like, you get that, like just the stupid old adage, you know, one man's junk is another man's treasure, right?

Like, I mean. [00:19:00] One minute, like I hate something that I own and the next minute, I'm like, that's the coolest thing. It could change. You can change every minute for every two. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's ever, ever changing. It's not like something that just is like ever present and always the same.

I think, you know, I mean, I think there's things that are timeless that are always going to be beauty, beautiful and like, and you'll see it and be like, Oh man, that was really good work about, Oh, that's an amazing painting, beautiful song or. Whatever. Right. Like that's that film. Oh my God. Really like hit me.

It's one of the few things that's ever made me cry in my whole life. You know what I mean? I think there's like real beauty out there that like is maybe a little bit undeniable. I don't want to sound like pretentious, you know, I just want to say that like beauty is like, whatever you want it to be, whatever you think it is, you know?

Cause like, to me, like, it's going to be completely different. Then [00:20:00] some other guy that like, he and I think nothing, like she and I think nothing like, or, you know, like I look at that kind of stuff and I just think like, I think there's some undeniable truths to things that are beautiful, but that doesn't mean that it's beautiful to somebody else.

Yeah.

Devin Fountain: What do you think? So that's a really, I mean, I'm asking you because you have 10 years experience on me, you know, it's, it's one of those things where it's like you know, somebody really old and you're like, what's the answer to life? And I'm like, it's still to love and to live. And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just 20, you know, I, I think it's, it's hard.

You know, because I have so many good museums around me in New York city. I've got the Met. I've got the MoMA, the Frick got the Guggenheim. That one's not that great. So I could go to those at any time. But oftentimes, you know, I think for me, [00:21:00] when it comes to beauty, I'm more finding them in moments of, of my life.

Not, not even necessarily like in objects, but in, in moments that I'm having like these little tiny. Ideas that I see around like going for a walk with my dog or something or like the other day I saw this TV in a waiting room that was an OLED TV and it was so burnt in from CNN being run out run on it like 24 7 and The receptionist turned it off and it had this beautiful red burn in throughout the entire screen and I just thought That looks like a painting to me.

Like that looks like some pop art. I love that. So like, I think that the older that I get, the more I'm finding beauty in these smaller moments when I'm being more present rather than in. You know, an inspiration website or a dribble or, you know, some book on [00:22:00] my, my desk or something, or even, even the objects that I have, like, I would consider myself somewhat of a, of a minimalist in that I just don't like, I don't like having stuff, you know, like I, I don't, I don't, I don't want to have these, these things that are, that I have to carry around that are attached to me.

I want things that mean more.

Brijan Powell: Yeah, yeah.

Devin Fountain: It's a hard question. That's why I asked it to you.

Brijan Powell: Totally get that. I mean we're in different situations though, too. Like I live in Utah where everything's expansive. We live in New York where everything's, you know, and it's like, of course you're going to have like a minimal lifestyle and here I'm like.

Throw everything you can on the table, put it up there. Cause I love all of it. If you don't like, not that I'm like a total maximalist by any means, but like, I'm just like, man, like if I love it and it's cool to look at what, why wouldn't I, why wouldn't I want, why wouldn't I want there? Not that I'm like promoting, like being like the world's biggest consumer either.

But like, I mean, man, sometimes you [00:23:00] just, they see things just like you were talking about those objects or like you're at those moments and you want to like, kind of just. Have like a weird little keepsake, maybe, you know, and I mean, it's interesting though. Cause like, I think about it and like, I go like places on trips and stuff and like, I'll come back and everybody has pictures and I'm the one guy that doesn't photos of anything.

I'm the same way. Cause I just want to like, go and experience, just want to go and have fun. Be there, you know, and yeah, it's like, it's funny. Cause like, you know, I'd find that so many people have that tendency to just like be snapping pictures. That's great. I don't have anything you can say. I'm not saying like, Oh, you're doing like, in fact, a lot of times I'm like, well, shit, I wish I had pictures, you know, but like, I'll grab like weird things and bring them home or like that kind of stuff.

So it's, it's just, you know, I think it's all in like how we experience life. Y'all do it so different, you know? [00:24:00]

Devin Fountain: And your, your wife is like a interior design psychologist, right? Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that that influences your design at all? Or I know it influences your surrounding. I mean, you have a very beautiful background right now.

Brijan Powell: Oh yeah. The old, the old house. Yeah. Every room it's like, okay, get it. I, yeah, I think that we kind of, she and I share a lot of like Similarities in our taste. She, she does some things that are a little different from me for sure. Like I think I'm a little bit more, I think I have like a little bit, which is weird, cause like my work does not reflect this at all.

Like, I think I have like a way more old world kind of taste. I love stuff that's like very traditional, but then like, if you want to make it feel a little more modern, cool, you know, like. You know, like old, like Italianette, like palms or that. And like, you know, like an old palazzo or something like that.

Look at that. Yeah. There, you know [00:25:00] like like kind of like a, just glass box is like interesting, but I don't think it's beautiful, you know, like I look at it and I'm like, that's cool. Like sure. Yeah. And it's amazing that like, if you have it in a space like where you have all this. Like garden around you and it's beautiful and awesome, you know, that's great.

Cause then it's like, I don't need the structure. I it's there to just protect me from the elements or whatever. But I, I think I gravitate towards, I mean, like my last house was kind of an old Victorian, not kind of, it was, it was a Victorian home and those kinds of things, like really, they really resonate with me, like, whereas like modern kind of stuff, it's like, yeah, that's cool.

It's definitely interesting. I can see why people like it. I think. But it's, it's not necessarily for me, like, that's one of those like, it kind of goes back to the beauty question, right? Like, like I can see the beauty in it. Like I think some of Frank Lloyd Wright's work is like something I've seen and it's very [00:26:00] modernist, right?

But I also think that like, you know, some of the older. Kind of things that you see, like, not necessarily in the United States. I, I, I'm very appreciative and I think it's like really amazing and beautiful. I kind of wish that there was a little more of that here, but obviously like we're a young country.

Devin Fountain: So to, to, to do another question here we're getting back to the, the hot take stuff, not necessarily. How do you handle criticism of your designs, especially when you're so vocal about the work others put out into the world?

Brijan Powell: Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Honestly, I think it's, I feel like it's very similar to the way I perceive like, well, you just, you just like stuff that's different stuff, you know?

And honestly, like sometimes I'm not really in love with the work either. I just know that the client is in love with it and is not. Like what matters at this point, [00:27:00] right? Like once it's like the final piece, like it's not necessarily up to me. It's like kind of way more about like what like their audience wants to see and like what they maybe think that their audience wants to see as well.

I think once you get further along into your career, you kind of just start to understand a little bit more cause you've trespassed so many times on so many different, like. Areas and different fields and different verticals, all that kind of stuff. But like, you start to kind of get a really good vibe of like, Oh, I'm going to be working in this kind of area with these kinds of people.

So obviously this is kind of the vibe that they're going to want to go with. And, you know, you, you kind of start out there and work your way through. I think that like, you know, like handling criticism from other people, like after the project is done is like, whatever. You know, handling criticism and [00:28:00] feedback during the project from like your creative director, art director the client themselves, you know, I, I have always looked at it as like an opportunity to do something even better.

You know? Like when they come back and say like, Oh, we're not sure how we feel about this. I'm always kind of like, you know, then tell me how you actually feel about it. Do you hate it? You just really aren't sure are you liking it, but you just don't know what you like about it, you know, like kind of like work through that stuff a little bit rather than like, take offense and be like, you know what I mean?

It's like, I feel like almost every option I show anymore, I'm happy about it and really like it. I'm not showing them like the third option that like, I, I don't feel good about like that, that doesn't. Exist any really, you know, it's like, I'm just showing them the things that I want to show them. And I honestly feel like most of the time, the work I'm [00:29:00] creating is work that I want to do, you know, like I'm doing things that like, I think will work really great.

And then if they come back and say, this is, none of this is working, it's not that, it's really not that frustrating. It's kind of just like, okay, well, what is going to work? You know, like, let's get there. Let's figure that out. I mean, I feel like that's kind of our job, right? Is like, just like, in a way, kind of dealing with rejection and like putting it on the back burner and not worrying about it and like kind of just trashing the rejection even, you know, like on that.

I'm being like, okay, well, like what's, what's on your mind? What do you think would work? You know, I mean, when it's like just a kind of like a criticism just to criticize, it's like, well, that's not helpful. Like it's not going to do anything, you know, like, I mean, I do it too. I think we all do it. Cause you see something and like that knee jerk reaction is like either it's fun, you know?

Yeah. Or you're like, Oh my God, that's ugly. Like, I mean? It's like one or the other. I [00:30:00] don't think that you have like a in between or where you're like, that's fine. You know, you really are going to be like, or, or like, Oh, that's really cool. You know? Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think that's kind of an interesting thing.

Cause every time I look at anybody's work, it's always like that, it's that instant in an instant, you're like, I feel nothing, it means nothing. I don't get it. Or like, oh man, that's incredible. I love it. I, and I definitely want to maybe even try to work with this person in the future, you know?

Devin Fountain: Yeah. I, I think that like with that comment too, you know, I look at your online presence and then even speaking to you now and you come across to me as like a very Confident person, confident in yourself and confident in your work, but do you share the same sort of like insecurities that a lot of designers have even, you know, 25 years into your career having imposter [00:31:00] syndrome, you know, feeling inadequate or or failing clients?

Like is that something that you still feel.

Brijan Powell: No, I don't know that I've ever felt those things. To me, I genuinely literally believe in imposter syndrome. I actually think it's super problematic. It was made, it was this whole thing that was cut, brought up by women, about women. And, you know, to continue it on feels wrong.

I think an imposter is an imposter. And if you are one, you know it. If you are just simply insecure with your work, and you just feel like Other people are doing better. That's just comparing, that's not being a posture. Right. You know? And, and I think, I think most people feel that, you know, and there were definitely times through my whole career and there's still times when I look at other people's work and I'm like, dang, I want to get to that.

But I don't feel like that's insecure. Right. I feel like that's like me being like, I want to be better. [00:32:00] I genuinely wanna learn more. I want to, you know, like having that desire to learn is not being an imposter, you know, it's that that's the exact opposite of it. Like an imposter doesn't give a shit about knowing anything about what they're supposed to know.

That's literally what makes you, right. So to me, I'm just like, yeah. And I, why, why would you not be confident in your work? Like. You want your work to exude that confidence. You want that. That's exactly what you want. You want your client to look at it and go like, yeah, that's totally it, you know? And then you start to feel pumped up and they start to feel pumped up and it's like this whole like, oh, yeah, cool We're there, you know, like it's like a whole thing in it.

I feel like the more you're like, oh, it's fine The more they're like, yeah, it's fine. So can we keep going? Wow, you know, and if the more you Like put that kind of energy out or it's just going to come back, you know, I mean, I know that sounds totally trite and cliche, but it's just true. You know, I mean, the things that [00:33:00] are cliche are always usually just you know, I mean, like, I think the more fun I have doing the work that I'm doing and the more confidence I have in it, or the more fun I'm having, the more confidence I do have, you know.

When, when I'm not having fun, I know for a fact that I'm going to hate it. And the class, you know, and how do you get past that? I mean, I don't know that there's like, you don't get past it. If it's not fun, fucking throw it away. Stop. Yeah. Stop. You know, like, why are you continuing? Just tell them this is shit.

We're not going to even go down this route, you know, have the confidence. Build your confidence, you know what I mean? Like, just literally be like, I'm going to stop this today. I'm going to try a little harder right now to like, just consistently get better at this. I mean, that's, that's one thing that like, I feel is like a very real, [00:34:00] very tangible and like, like you see the results by just.

Staying consistent, just consistently doing little by little consistency creates, right? Like you just get that little bit of like getting better. I can see it. I'm getting better. I see more now anyone could say anything they want about me. And it's not going to be there.

Devin Fountain: Yeah. I think that there's a bit of of like pressure in, in the design industry for, you know, designers to like.

You know, be commissioned and then like, Hey, design a website or design an app. And it's like, okay, you, you have to get it right. Kind of immediately. There's no, there's no time to think and be creative. The client needs this thing ASAP and you have no time, but then also everybody wants everything to be beautiful.

And so those things are sort of. Like at odds with one another. But with you, you're saying that you're just like, you'll, [00:35:00] you know, you'll tell the client this isn't working. I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board because art takes time. And you're saying that design is art and art is designed in a way.

Brijan Powell: Yeah. I mean, honestly, like sad that so many people don't see it that way because like, yeah, sure, sure. It's not fine art. Okay. Right. There's. There's a, there's a difference there, but I mean, like when people say the, the silly things of like, well, design of those folks, you know, it's like, then you don't understand the function of art, you know, I mean, it's not there just simply to exist, like you may believe it's there to like, actually.

But that person that created it, that, that out them about how they feel, how they think, what their worldview is. And you know what? It gives you the chance to challenge your own worldviews and how you perceive things. I think that's like a huge deal. Right. And I feel like that's exactly what you'd want to go back to.

[00:36:00] Or I personally want to go back to clients with and say like, look, it's, we both know it's not doing anything. We both know it's not working. Yeah. Like, why are we pretending like this is the right thing? Let's sack it and just go for something fully, you know? And, and honestly, like nine times out of 10, 9.

9 times up and they'll be like, you're right, let's start over. And sometimes I eat the cost and just say, you know what, I'm not even going to charge more. Like, I just, I feel so bad about how bad this is that like we literally have to change it and I'm going to, you know, and sometimes that's the cost of doing business, you know, and to do business in a way that you have integrity in your work and you.

You know, really feel good about what you're putting out, you know, I don't, I don't think all design has to be great and, and has to be like something that you feel great about putting out. I don't think that's, I don't think that has to [00:37:00] be the case. I think that it makes you feel a lot more excited about what you're doing.

I think it makes you feel more joy. It gives you more fulfillment. You know what I mean? Like when you're just passing everything and that just starts to wear on you and. I think those are the people that like, start to feel those things of like, I feel like an actual imposter. I feel like, you know, like, I genuinely feel depressed.

I feel anxious. I feel like, not great. It's because A lot of times we're not doing our greatest, you know, I mean, I don't think that that's always the answer for sure. I mean, there's chemical stuff, you know what I mean? Like I think a lot of it is simply just based on the fact that like, we're just not pushing ourselves and learning and continue to grow.

And so we feel like, well, what's next, you know?

Devin Fountain: Oh, dude, I completely agree with you. I was at a [00:38:00] job before what doing what I do now, I'm a, I just do freelance now. And I was an app designer for a long time. And it was, it was fun in the way that was like, it was easy and it was good. It was really good money.

You know, it always left me with like, you know, the Sunday scaries. I never, I never looked forward to a week. I never looked forward to designing something. It was always like, it felt like, and I had told my therapist multiple times too, that it felt like I had never pushed myself. I was always sort of coasting for a long time until, you know, doing freelance and like, man, I, I, I look forward to Mondays now I don't.

I don't, sometimes even I'll work on a Sunday or a Saturday. Actually I did this weekend, but I think that a lot of people need to be pushed.

Brijan Powell: Yeah. Yeah. Like when you're really excited about a project and you're pushing yourself and you totally, you, it's the exact opposite. You have no anxiety. You have complete confidence.

[00:39:00] You're so, so excited about nothing could ever be better. I'm literally never going to make better work. It's never going to happen. This is it is the best I'm going to do. You know, because you're just so excited and you just want to keep going on it and going on it and you know, it is, you kind of do like the, there were definitely times in my career and there still are where it's like, I do a full 15 hour day for like six days a week straight because I'm just like, I can't, I literally can't pull myself away from this cause it's so awesome.

You know, not that my work is so incredible. It's just the ideas, like, just keep flowing. Just, you're excited about it all. It's like, I want designers to experience that. And I feel like so many of them, you know, and that's what I loved going back to. Like when we first talked about, you know, like. Just kind of like that idea of like seeing this work that made you feel like I [00:40:00] wanted that's so that's so cool Yeah, you know and like I see like apps and I'm just like that's really sad I hope that that's not like what people like are really getting off.

It's just not that interesting That's maybe not fair because again going back to like what's beautiful to you isn't beautiful to me You know, I mean, I just hope the designers can like all feel that exact same kind of feeling, man. I literally could never be more stoked or pumped on or excited about this work that I'm doing.

You know, it's like such a great feeling. And once you have that experience once or twice, it's like, you kind of just keep wanting it and you kind of get like a weird addiction to it. And that's what builds. Like, for instance, I'm like, no, literally every project I hit now, this is even better than the last one.

And this one's even better than the last one.

Devin Fountain: So what do you think is like the last piece of art that [00:41:00] has, you know, really moved you? Like really made you think of something and, and also I'm going to add design to that too. What's the last piece of design that you saw that you were like, holy shit, or made you cry?

I don't know. I've never seen a piece of design that made me cry, but

Brijan Powell: I don't know if design has ever really brought me to tears. Yeah, I really, I really like a lot of, I mean, I still think Matt Willie does like really great work. He's he's one of the guys that I look at his work and think that's really good at that thought. As far as like design goes, he's, he's one of the. People that I really like their work. There's definitely tons of people out there that could name, and I think they're doing really amazing work. You know, I think that like the young jerks, they're doing cool stuff.

Devin Fountain: Oh, Dan Cassaro and the team are incredible.

I see their beer all the time at my bodega.

Brijan Powell: Yeah. And you know, [00:42:00] like, I think they're doing cool stuff. I think Mike Smith, Smith and Dixon, he's doing cool stuff. I think he could have a poster of his, you know, like a Jonathan Schubert. Like he does really incredible work that, I mean, there's so many, so many people that could go through and name off that they're just all doing like super awesome work.

As far as like art, there's again, just so much like, like you mentioned Matt, you know, like the last time I went to the Met, I was just like, I was as like speechless as I just was, you know, like, it, it's like you go in and you just kind of.

Devin Fountain: There was, there was a painting recently I think it was as of last year. It's not there anymore. It's in the Brooklyn Museum and it caught my eye immediately. Like nobody was looking at it and it's [00:43:00] the, I think it's a piece of art that I just felt almost crushed looking at. It was like. The deepest sadness and it was called it's called Anguish by Schenck.

It was a, it's a painting of mother sheep basically like lamenting over the death of her baby while like birds and vultures like fly around and the, the sky in the background is this dark ominous boating just Deeply black cloudy sky and it's, it's exquisite. It's huge too. It's gotta be like, you know, 12, 15 feet tall or something like that.

It's, and it's, I think it's a square, square painting, but it's an amazing piece that I just, I just stood there and I just looked at like every single detail of the painting for a good 10 minutes and it just made me feel really low and I haven't felt that in a painting in a long, long time.

Brijan Powell: And that's pretty awesome.

Devin Fountain: I mean. Yeah, look, look it up. I'm going to get a chance. It's a [00:44:00] very depressing piece of art. That's all the guy paints, I believe. So I’m a really big fan.

Brijan Powell: Lower this blind. That's like totally right on me. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah. But yeah, man, that's, I mean, that's super cool. That's the exact kind of thing. Like when you see something that just really makes you feel like, like any kind of emotion, whether it's good or bad, you know, like I. I think it's awesome when that, when that happens, when you get like something that really affects you like that, what's cool than that, you know what I mean, that's, that's really cool that you have had that experience.

I mean, those are the exact kind of experiences that like, I, I would, I would love to be able to create for people, you know what I mean? It's like, that's, [00:45:00] that's…

Devin Fountain: Yeah. Sometimes I worry that. You know, the, the, the design that I do with it being almost ephemeral, given that it's a web design, right? Like a website could just end at any moment, which I guess gives further credence to your argument of like, just have fun, right?

If they're all ephemeral and they're going away, but sometimes I worry that like the, the things that I create. In my professional life, we'll have almost no emotional weight, no emotional meaning when compared to real true fine art or music or poetry or illustration.

Brijan Powell: Yeah.

Devin Frountain: You feel that too?

Brijan Powell: Oh, a hundred percent.

I mean, like that's, that's why I'm trying to move slowly away from doing almost all web and like, I've been doing a lot more branding work because I think that at least branding has the capacity to be lasting. You know, like whether it's fine art or not [00:46:00] is like totally, maybe not even debatable.

Who knows? Like, I don't, I don't, I'm not going to take that. But like, I feel like, I feel like that's the really awesome thing about branding is that like, it can actually create a world and it's a little bit longer lasting than just simple website that, like you said, will last maybe, maybe at the most, if, if these people that you did it for are really lazy.

But the truth is, is most websites are probably only going to last like a year or two, you know, especially in the form that like you intended it to be right. Like that's going to change like almost immediately, you know, like you're going to hand off the site and if it's got like some kind of CMS. It's going to kick in seconds, you know, like…

Devin Fountain: Happened literally yesterday to me.

Brijan Powell: Yeah. It's like, okay, well there, my everything you're trying to accomplish, but [00:47:00] whatever, you know, like that's you're right. So I wish that, that any of my work could have even just like the smallest, like. Impact like that, some fine art has, and like, that's maybe not a super realistic. Well, you know, it's just probably not.

Devin Fountain: So I don't want to take too much more of your time. So I also have like a call, a client call after this. I wanted to ask you know, related to a website that I just recently launched, which is just dedicated to. Literally footers on websites and the more submissions we get the more picky we can be about what we feature and a lot of The footers that I see are just they're just link trees, right?

They're just an excuse like, okay well, we don't know where to put these links just put them at the bottom and I've seen yours and Obviously, you're a great designer and you know, you make beautiful websites and the footers are are beautiful as well [00:48:00] What do you think goes like what do you think is the key to like a really beautiful footer?

Brijan Powell: I don't think of myself as a storyteller and all these other like stupid, you know, like, you know what I mean.

Devin Fountain: When I scroll from the top to the bottom, I’m telling a story.

Brijan Powell: I just, I genuinely just want people to experience it and look at it and, and be like, wow, that was really pretty easy to get through.

Like, it wasn't like actually physically hard for me to like, And now that I'm at the bottom of this, like I, there's some, there's even more, there's something else to like, consume, you know what I mean? Like, I kind of like that idea of just continuing always, like you always have something there for people, no matter like how superfluous that, that thing may be, right.

I think that [00:49:00] what makes anything like really interesting to me is when again, like how coming back to consistency right, like, where everything just feels like, Oh, that makes sense that it totally makes sense that like these things would be here. And, and I get it. Like there, there's some continuity.

Okay. It's helping me like kind of really get to know, like more about that company, that person, this, you know, product, what right. Like, I feel like that's kind of the idea is to like, try and like help people like, just like engage a little bit more, like. Really feel like, well, I'm kind of part of this weird little world or this little family of whatever it is, you know?

I mean, I kind of feel like everything maybe kind of comes back to like what we were talking about earlier, like if I can't be there physically to have that conversation with you, you know, like [00:50:00] this is maybe the next best thing that like I can possibly think to do, you know, so that we can kind of continue that conversation, but not really, but like, hopefully at least.

So I think that's kind of, I don't know, like, but what makes anything great? I don't have the answer. I just feel like I want things to be enjoyable for me. And hopefully if it was enjoyable for me and fun for me, it's, it's obviously should be fun for other people, you know? And whether that's like just a simple basic footer.

Or, or like like an entire brand program and system. Like, sure, like, whatever it is, like the more I enjoy it, hopefully other people can see that, that it was like a process that was really exciting for people that did it. So you kind of want to be. [00:51:00]

Devin Fountain: I think there should be more, more of that as well.

Like more of like, you know, not, not necessarily like, Oh, we, we. You know, talk to the PMs and the KPIs are doing really well and the Google analytics like funnel rate. And it's like, Yeah, but it doesn't feel good. Yeah. It feels like shit. You know, there's that term in, in product design in like the, the tech world “dog fooding”.

Are you familiar?

Brijan Powll: It's what now? It's called “dogfooding”? No.

Are you, are you familiar with that? So “dogfooding” in like the Silicon Valley, like tech industry is a term that they used when they want people within the company to use their own app. They want you to, to use the app to understand the pain points and whatever to you know, for, for the users so that you understand like, oh, this thing is difficult or I don't really enjoy using this.

I just find it really ironic that it's called dogfooding because dogfood tastes like shit and of course nobody wants to eat it. [00:52:00] Like what? Like of course you have to make your employees dogfood the app because it fucking sucks.

Brijan Powell: I mean, you know what like that's exactly what I'm talking about. And that's that's I feel like that's kind of the thing that like I'm always like really giving people shit about Like when it really comes down to it.

I'm just like This is how you want to live your life. Like, really, this is genuinely how you want to live your life. I don't think it is. I think that you're just doing that so that you can play along, so that you can make your paycheck. Which, hey, I'm not, I'm not talking shit on anybody making good money and like making a living.

Great. Good for you. But like, please be honest and say like, yeah, I mean, yeah, it is. It is pretty, you know, like,

Devin Fountain: Hey, the money's good, but I really don't like the way this dog food tastes.

Brijan Powell: And it's like, look, like there's some things that are quantifiable and that you can, you can see [00:53:00] like, Oh yes, this clearly helped us make money.

But then there's other things that are so like magic, you know, like there's just things that are just straight. Like I was just talking to somebody else about this, like just the other day, but like the you know, like. The most interesting man in the world, right? Like, that literally brought them on the map.

No one was drinking, no one, you know? And then all of a sudden the most famous people on the planet are like, I need to meet that interesting man. Michael Jordan's like, I'm going to hang out with that dude. You know, like some of the most, literally the most famous people on the planet were like, I need to know this person.

You know, and he wasn't even really, honestly, the most interesting man in the world. It was all just an ad thing. And to me, that's like, that's exactly the kind of stuff to like, man, if I can do that just one time in my career, I'm going to be so fucking [00:54:00] pumped. You know, like, you know, like that's so cool.

Like to me, like that's, that's quantifiable. Like they did this weird thing that they took a bet on and it exploded, you know, like. So when people say like, Oh, you know, like, well, we're not sure it's like, well, look at all these things that they have done, like Old Spice, like those weird commercials, everybody, like all of a sudden it's like, stop using that shitty Axe bottle spray and I'm going back to Old Spice.

You know what I mean? Like, it's just like simple, simple little things like that. I think that like people overlook it all the time when it's like, no, that's the one thing that actually made you feel something. It made you laugh. It made you like. Like, you know, feel like you were connected to that thing.

Like, and you know, like, yes, it's all in the name of like selling a product, but like, that's the whole thing is like, why can't people that are making these apps do the exact same thing? You know, I, I don't use Geico app, like, [00:55:00] like I don't use Geico insurance, but like when I see their commercials, I, for sure, I'm like, maybe I should think about switching because these guys at least like try, you know It's just that kind of thing.

I think it's awesome when people put in just that little bit of extra effort. Just a little.

Devin Fountain: Whenever I see an ad, I actually think, well, I'm sure as shit not buying your product now because you paid for this ad slot. You interrupted my YouTube video for this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Brian, seriously. Thank you so much for talking to me. Where can people find you? Where do you want people to find you? If at all.

Brijan Powell: Oh, you know, You'll find me at a, at a local bar in Salt Lake city.

Devin Fountain: That's great. Drinking a Dos Equis, right.

Brijan Powell: Or in my house, hanging out with my son and my wife. No, you can, you can check out like you know, just my website. You can get to any, anything from there for the most part, just powell-studio.com.

Devin Fountain: Cool. Thanks so much, dude.

Brijan Powell: Oh, This was awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time.